[Valyrian_Knight01]

Salut , un petit DD sur une partie du système militaire musulman.

Spoiler:

Hello everyone, welcome back to a new RIRSEI Dev Diary ! Today we will talk of the upcoming update on the rework of the military system ! We will more specifically talk about the muslim military system of RIRSEI ! There will be a bit of text and not much screens, as it is still work in progress, but you should read this if you are interested in the mod, as it is a major mechanic !

The medieval muslim armies were following a pattern of using slave as their main soldier corps . We are not talking of slave dying of hunger, walking to the battlefield in chains fearing the master's whip, but of elite soldiers, bought in their youth, trained from their childhood, and given the best equippement avalaible. The most famous exemples of theses are the Mamlukes, or the Janissaries. They often formed the bulk of muslim armies. But why though ?

To understand this , we must explain Ibn Khaldun's cycle theory,which describe rather well the medieval muslim society.

For Ibn Khaldun (medieval muslim philosopher) , there are two extremely different worlds : the sedentary world , and the nomadic world.

The sedentary world is composed of cities and city-dwellers. Cities are essential for a state, as they provide most of the taxes, the bureaucracy and the cultural life. However, in order to maximise the collect of revenues, the state disarm the people. Thus , the city-dwellers are poor soldiers, their armies often formed of thugs and hooligans, just good enough to fill the ranks. The city dwellers ask for monetary compensation to perform their duty , forcing the state to divert a lot of money just to function.

On the opposite side , you have the nomadic people. They live harshly, but theses harsh conditions lead them to develop a strong clan spirit, or "Asabiyya" . In short , they develop a very strong bond, where a man can give his life away for the clan without asking for a compensation. They thus form a strong, disciplined force which will smash through the city dweller's armies. However, they often waste their strenght in petty clanic issues and spend their time killing themselves in tribal warfare.

The city dweller thus must hire theses nomads to ensure their safety.

The Ibn Khaldun's cycle begins when a nomadic force conquer a sedentary city and sedentarize itself. The new dynasty's Asabiyya is strong, and their tribal forces are not asking for financial compensation, or a very minimal one.

However , the Ibn Khaldun cycle state the following :

Adversity leads to strenght. Strenght leads to prosperity. Prosperity leads to weakness . Weakness leads to ruin and adversity.

With each following generation, the dynasty will lose Asabiyya, and their forces will ask more and more for a financial compensation, even asking for a place in state business. That means that with the passing of time , the dynasty will become decadent and money-asking, losing this primal 'esprit de corps' which made its strenghth, changing it for a lust of power and money. At some point , the cost of the army and the state becomes too high to endure to the cities, which become depopulated and die due to heavy taxation, until either the dynasty renew its Asabiyya by introducing slave soldiers from a new source (thus creating artificially a force that will not ask as much money and is not yet corrupted by the decadence of city dwellers ), or crumble under their slave soldier's revolt, beginning a new cycle.

In the mod , several crown laws has been added . Some relevant screenshots :

https://i.imgur.com/pl0Velh_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/1Yt6tmx_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/ocfVKHD_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/TAnfJjD_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

With each new generation , you will lose one level of Asabiyya. With that loss, you will suffer from tax penalties forcing you to increase the taxes exponentially, which will decrease your realm's stability. When you hit "low Asabiyya", that generally means you are in trouble.

However, there is still hope for you ! You can decide to renew your Asabiyya by taking soldiers from other sources . There are different types of slave soldiers, each giving a specific retinue -Turkish , Circassian, Sudanese, and so on. By taking soldiers from another source, you take a step back in Khaldun's cycle and postpone your eventual collapse .

This is how RIRSEI handle the rework of muslim military system (at least for sedentary rulers, tribal (nomadic) rulers gets specific buildings ). As a result, almost all other buildings regarding soldiers (like "Barracks" in castles) have been wiped out . The muslim armies are essentially composed of theses new retinues symbolising slave soldiers, with some other auxiliaries that we will talk about in another DD, including mercenaries and soldiers coming from military buildings


The specific mercenaries of muslim rulers (like the 30K strong Mamlukes mercenaries from Egyptian rulers, ugggh, fuck that shit) have been wiped out as a result . Muslim cities, however, gain a massive income boost compared to western or greek cities (as they don't have to maintain a numerous militia, unlike the western cities).

That is all for today ! Next time we will finish to talk about the muslim military system !

[Faras]

Bon allez, j'ai eu une semaine bien chargée, mais je vais me reprendre :
D'abord, j'ai fini les zoroastriens. J'ai rien trouvé à propos des éthiopiens, je vais donc passer aux nomades, et faire des "placeholders" pour les autres cultures. Ensuite, c'est révision des bugs, et sortie de la bêta ! Je n'ose rien vous promettre mais j'espère sortir la beta avant la fin de cette année.

Dragoris :
Heu étrange pour le premier bug...je vais regarder cela.
Pour le second : arf, je suis désolé et je vois bien ou cela vient. J'avais modifié bien auparavant la décision et cela a peut-être buggué. Je note encore. Juste une question : tu t'es bien féodalisé par décision ? et non pas autrement ?

Valyrian_Knight01 : je te corrige ce soir.

[Faras]

Hop :

Salut , un petit DD sur une partie du système militaire musulman.

Spoiler:

Hello everyone, welcome back to a new RIRSEI Dev Diary ! Today we will talk of the upcoming update on the rework of the military system ! We will more specifically talk about the muslim military system of RIRSEI ! There will be a bit of text and not much screens, as it is still work in progress (heu actuellement c'est terminé, tu peux télécharger la nouvelle version (envoie-moi un mp si tu ne l'as pas), but you should read this if you are interested in the mod, as it is a major mechanic !

The medieval muslim armies were following a pattern of using slave as their main soldier corps (c'est plus compliqué que ca, car ca peut être des mercenaires (ex : les espagnols sous les Hafsides, ou des régiments tribaux. Dit plutôt que les états musulmans utilisent toujours des forces armées issues de leur périphérie nomade) . We are not talking of slave dying of hunger, walking to the battlefield in chains fearing the master's whip, but of elite soldiers, bought in their youth, trained from their childhood, and given the best equippement avalaible. The most famous exemples of theses are the Mamlukes, or the Janissaries. They often formed the bulk of muslim armies. But why though ?

To understand this , we must explain Ibn Khaldun's cycle theory,which describe rather well the medieval muslim society.

For Ibn Khaldun (medieval muslim philosopher) , there are two extremely different worlds (mais qui sont toujours en relation) : the sedentary world , and the nomadic world.

The sedentary world is composed of cities and city-dwellers (et de leur périphérie rurale). Cities are essential for a state, as they provide most of the taxes, the bureaucracy and the cultural life. However, in order to maximise the collect of revenues, the state disarm the people. Thus , the city-dwellers are poor soldiers, their armies often formed of thugs and hooligans, just good enough to fill the ranks. The city dwellers ask for monetary compensation to perform their duty , forcing the state to divert a lot of money just to function (heu pas vraiment, ils coutent rien, ce qui mine l'Etat, c'est payer ses mercenaires et ses esclaves-soldats et sa manuficience)

On the opposite side , you have the nomadic people (attention ici, on entends par nomades les bada'wi d'Ibn Khaldoun, c'est-à-dire des peuples qui ne vivent pas sous la férule d'un état fort. Pour ibn khaldoun, par exemple, les espagnols sont des nomades ). They live harshly, but theses harsh conditions lead them to develop a strong clan spirit, or "Asabiyya" . In short , they develop a very strong bond, where a man can give his life away for the clan without asking for a compensation. They thus form a strong, disciplined force which will smash through the city dweller's armies. However, they often waste their strenght in petty clanic issues and spend their time killing themselves in tribal warfare.

The city dweller thus must hire theses nomads to ensure their safety.

The Ibn Khaldun's cycle begins when a nomadic force conquer a sedentary city and sedentarize itself. The new dynasty's Asabiyya is strong, and their tribal forces are not asking for financial compensation, or a very minimal one.

However , the Ibn Khaldun cycle state the following :

Adversity leads to strenght. Strenght leads to prosperity. Prosperity leads to weakness . Weakness leads to ruin and adversity. (c'est de machiavel, pas d'ibn khaldoun cela. Mais ca correspond peu ou prou)

With each following generation, the dynasty will lose Asabiyya, and their forces will ask more and more for a financial compensation, even asking for a place in state business. That means that with the passing of time , the dynasty will become decadent and money-asking, losing this primal 'esprit de corps' which made its strenghth, changing it for a lust of power and money. At some point , the cost of the army and the state becomes too high to endure to the cities, which become depopulated and die due to heavy taxation, until either the dynasty renew its Asabiyya by introducing slave soldiers from a new source (thus creating artificially a force that will not ask as much money and is not yet corrupted by the decadence of city dwellers ), or crumble under their slave soldier's revolt (ou céder devant des forces bédouines extérieures !), beginning a new cycle.

In the mod , several crown laws has been added . Some relevant screenshots :

https://i.imgur.com/pl0Velh_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/1Yt6tmx_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/ocfVKHD_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/TAnfJjD_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

With each new generation , you will lose one level of Asabiyya. With that loss, you will suffer from tax penalties forcing you to increase the taxes exponentially, which will decrease your realm's stability. When you hit "low Asabiyya", that generally means you are in trouble.

However, there is still hope for you ! You can decide to renew your Asabiyya by taking soldiers from other sources . There are different types of slave soldiers (et d'autres non esclaves mais plutôt mercenaires, comme les francs ou les arméniens), each giving a specific retinue -Turkish , Circassian, Sudanese, and so on. By taking soldiers from another source, you take a step back in Khaldun's cycle and postpone your eventual collapse .

This is how RIRSEI handle the rework of muslim military system (at least for sedentary rulers, tribal (nomadic) rulers gets specific buildings ). As a result, almost all other buildings regarding soldiers (like "Barracks" in castles) have been wiped out . The muslim armies are essentially composed of theses new retinues symbolising slave soldiers, with some other auxiliaries that we will talk about in another DD, including mercenaries and soldiers coming from military buildings


The specific mercenaries of muslim rulers (like the 30K strong Mamlukes mercenaries from Egyptian rulers, ugggh, fuck that shit) have been wiped out as a result . Muslim cities, however, gain a massive income boost compared to western or greek cities (as they don't have to maintain a numerous militia, unlike the western cities).

That is all for today ! Next time we will finish to talk about the muslim military system !

[Dragoris]

Faras : Ok merci. Oui, il s'agit bien d'une décision. Je ne savais pas qu'il pouvait y avoir une féodalisation "forcée".
Sinon j'ai fait une AAR avec ton mod, que j'ai écrite ici, mais je suis bloqué jusqu'à résolution du bug

[Faras]

Dragoris : J'ai vu, désolé :c J'espère que je vais bien pouvoir le corriger...
J'avance sur les nomades : au programme du nerf, et un peu plus d'histolocité pour la cavalerie lourde :

[Valyrian_Knight01]

Salut ! Alors je reviens parce que l'on m'a fait deux trois remarques :

1)Les Sunnites ont des écoles juridiques . Mais les Chiites non , ce qui les rend un peu plus chiant à jouer . Ne serait il PS intéressant de faire des Ismailites, Duodécimains, etc l'équivalent des "écoles juridiques " (c'est plus des doctrines théologiques mais tu vois l'idée ) version chiite ?

[D'ailleurs question :la mise à jour du système musulman inclut Sunnite , Chiite ET Ibadis hein ? T'en as pas oublié par hasard ?]

On m'a aussi demandé s'il y aura des différences de gameplay entre Chiite et Sunnite , quitte à inclure des évents (on m'a suggéré un event basé sur " Ashura/Karbala " (même si j'ai aucune idée de ce que c'est :-C

2)Rien à voir , mais on m'a envoyé à ce post sur reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKin...tty_bad_heres/

ce genre de mécanisme est probablement impossible à implanter dans un mod , mais je trouve l'idée d'un trait "Fluent en Latin /Grec Antique" assez intéressant, un peu comme le trait Falsafa pour les Muslims

[Kalmakil]

on m'a suggéré un event basé sur " Ashura/Karbala " (même si j'ai aucune idée de ce que c'est :-C

Wikipedia bonjour :
Ashura/Achoura = fête co-principale chez les Chiites, qui consiste notamment en un pélerinage commémorant la bataille de Kerbala, perdue par les fils d'Ali, et qui marque la séparation définitive entre sunnites et chiites (il y a une fête mineure du même nom et pas du tout pour les mêmes raisons chez les sunnites).

Kerbala est située près de Nadjaf où a été fixée la tombe présumée d'Ali. Les chiites pieux du monde entier se font enterrer à proximité, dans le Wadi es-salam, réputé être le plus grand cimetière du monde.

Problème, je sais pas trop comment ça a réellement été mis en place... plus probablement en fin de période par rapport à CK2 !!

Un event "enterrement à Nadjaf" pour les chiites si la région est contrôlée par un comte de cette religion pourrait être cohérent historiquement.

[Mouchi]

Rien à voir , mais on m'a envoyé à ce post sur reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKin...tty_bad_heres/

ce genre de mécanisme est probablement impossible à implanter dans un mod , mais je trouve l'idée d'un trait "Fluent en Latin /Grec Antique" assez intéressant, un peu comme le trait Falsafa pour les Muslims

Il y a un mod sur langues qui est en cours de développement.

[Le_Rodolphien]

Bonjour à tous

Depuis un petit moment, je cherche comment rendre CK2 plus historique, et surtout comment sauver de la disparition la dynastie des Rodolphiens de Bourgogne (qui me fascine, pour une raison que je suis pas capable d'expliquer). Aussi, j'adorerai jouer à ce mod, mais malheureusement, malgré une installation comme indiquée, le jeu crash à chaque démarrage lors du lancement, à environ la moitié du chargement (la barre indique "chargement des éventements").

C'est un problèle connu ? Je suis le seul ? Y'a-t-il un truc que j'ai manqué ? Je n'ai pas la dernière extension, je me suis arrêté à horse lord.

merci d'avance pour vos réponses

[Valyrian_Knight01]

Normal, le mod est pour l'instant uniquement jouable pour la version 2.6.3 , et non pas la version actuelle

edit : enfin , je crois ?

[Le_Rodolphien]

Au temps pour moi, mes envies Rodolphiennes attendront donc

[Le_Rodolphien]

Du coup, y'a un projet de le porter à la version actuelle ?

Inversement, il est possible de jouer une version antérieure du jeu ?

[Valyrian_Knight01]

Tu vas surban Steam =>clic droit sur le jeu =>propriétés => bêtas => essaie la 2.7.1 puis la 2.6.3 si ça marche pas.

Le mod aura une update d'ici la fin de l'année en théorie

[supermenteur]

Hey Valyrian faire l'Islam c'est long et compliqué, déjà il faut revoir le système khaldunien, et que Faras finissent les barbares, ensuite il reviendra vers la civlisation!patience!

[Valkirio]

Salut, le palace des maisons marchandes n'existe plus? J'ai pas réussi à y accéder